Comments on: An evolving God http://www.jeunestreet.com/2009/03/26/an-evolving-god/ On religion, governance and world development Tue, 07 Sep 2010 17:36:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Martijn Rep http://www.jeunestreet.com/2009/03/26/an-evolving-god/comment-page-1/#comment-479 Martijn Rep Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:23:11 +0000 http://www.jeunestreet.com/?p=641#comment-479 Thanks, Brian. You are right about Darwin, in that he proposed the mechanism of evolution, not the idea of evolution itself. In fact the elegant mechanism he proposed was the combination of the spontaneous generation of genetic variation and selection. In addition, he inferred that all life forms must have a common ancestor. Just like religion (i.e. spiritual life) is one, but has different forms of expression and one can evolve out of another, while still being 'original' :-) I wonder if there is an analogy to the Manifestation of God in biological evolution. I also agree that it's fruitless to look for answers to the underlying principles of social evolution in our genes. It's indeed fascinating to, instead, look at the role of religion in that process. Thanks, Brian. You are right about Darwin, in that he proposed the mechanism of evolution, not the idea of evolution itself. In fact the elegant mechanism he proposed was the combination of the spontaneous generation of genetic variation and selection. In addition, he inferred that all life forms must have a common ancestor. Just like religion (i.e. spiritual life) is one, but has different forms of expression and one can evolve out of another, while still being ‘original’ :-)
I wonder if there is an analogy to the Manifestation of God in biological evolution.

I also agree that it’s fruitless to look for answers to the underlying principles of social evolution in our genes. It’s indeed fascinating to, instead, look at the role of religion in that process.

]]> By: Brian http://www.jeunestreet.com/2009/03/26/an-evolving-god/comment-page-1/#comment-477 Brian Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:19:21 +0000 http://www.jeunestreet.com/?p=641#comment-477 I always enjoy your comments, Martijn! We may be saying the same thing in a different way. I didn't mean that religion exert their effects 'like' natural selection, but I'm not a trained philosopher or political scientist (or economist ;-)) so maybe not expressing my ideas well. Having recently read about Darwin, my understanding is that his contribution was not to propose the idea of evolution, but to outline the mechanism - that being natural selection. So now we have the idea of progressive social evolution, but nobody really knows the underlying mechanism - is it the ideas of great philosophers? Or could it be that the analagous mechanism is actually the divinely revealed religions that educate mankind? Education in true religion (and morality is a large part of that) has no intrinsic survival advantage to the individual and cannot be passed on through genes. However it does lead to a survival advantage to the community, and is passed on through education of the next generation. So looking for the answer to social evolution in our genes is pointless. A simplistic concept perhaps - I'm hoping someone else will write the Book! I always enjoy your comments, Martijn! We may be saying the same thing in a different way. I didn’t mean that religion exert their effects ‘like’ natural selection, but I’m not a trained philosopher or political scientist (or economist ;-) ) so maybe not expressing my ideas well. Having recently read about Darwin, my understanding is that his contribution was not to propose the idea of evolution, but to outline the mechanism – that being natural selection. So now we have the idea of progressive social evolution, but nobody really knows the underlying mechanism – is it the ideas of great philosophers? Or could it be that the analagous mechanism is actually the divinely revealed religions that educate mankind? Education in true religion (and morality is a large part of that) has no intrinsic survival advantage to the individual and cannot be passed on through genes. However it does lead to a survival advantage to the community, and is passed on through education of the next generation. So looking for the answer to social evolution in our genes is pointless. A simplistic concept perhaps – I’m hoping someone else will write the Book!

]]> By: Martijn Rep http://www.jeunestreet.com/2009/03/26/an-evolving-god/comment-page-1/#comment-467 Martijn Rep Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:31:15 +0000 http://www.jeunestreet.com/?p=641#comment-467 I don't think religious teachings are a mechanism like natural selection. The teachings are more like the DNA of an organism (the religious community) on which selection is exerted (and the teachings can be expressed in several ways, just like DNA). In biology, future survival and spread is difficult or even impossible to predict; 'success' of a genetic 'formula' is always an after-the-fact judgement. Still, with religion we may make an educated guess? Perhaps the 'divine hand' in religion (new or renewed teachings) is analogous to the 'divine hand' in biological evolution (new combinations of genes): equally valid or invalid. Sorry for the randomness of thoughts. Fascinating topic. I don’t think religious teachings are a mechanism like natural selection. The teachings are more like the DNA of an organism (the religious community) on which selection is exerted (and the teachings can be expressed in several ways, just like DNA). In biology, future survival and spread is difficult or even impossible to predict; ‘success’ of a genetic ‘formula’ is always an after-the-fact judgement. Still, with religion we may make an educated guess? Perhaps the ‘divine hand’ in religion (new or renewed teachings) is analogous to the ‘divine hand’ in biological evolution (new combinations of genes): equally valid or invalid. Sorry for the randomness of thoughts. Fascinating topic.

]]> By: Brian http://www.jeunestreet.com/2009/03/26/an-evolving-god/comment-page-1/#comment-464 Brian Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:40:40 +0000 http://www.jeunestreet.com/?p=641#comment-464 This was a great article in Atlantic, and links to some of your previous posts. This is the next Big Idea - that religion is a/the main shaper of human social & cultural evolution, and it is exciting to read Wright's analysis. Since Watson & Crick we have focussed on the genes and understanding genetics as the basis for physical evolution through natural selection. Some try to explain the evolution of our behaviours through genetics. But that doesn't explain human empathy and other virtues that are not individually beneficial to survival. These virtues are taught - and through education are more widely inculcated in a society evolving towards a global civilization. Individual belief in these virtues is necessary for society to survive - obviously the values of fascism and communism have failed, and now capitalism is also failing. What is the source of the teachings that will help man to evolve as a society? Whether or not you believe in God as the source, one can't deny that religion is the source of teachings that are a major mechanism for social/cultural evolution just as natural selection is the mechanism for genetic evolution. This doesn't mean that God is evolving, but that only a religion that teaches mankind what is needed to survive in our 'niche' - the planet - can ultimately flourish. This was a great article in Atlantic, and links to some of your previous posts. This is the next Big Idea – that religion is a/the main shaper of human social & cultural evolution, and it is exciting to read Wright’s analysis. Since Watson & Crick we have focussed on the genes and understanding genetics as the basis for physical evolution through natural selection. Some try to explain the evolution of our behaviours through genetics. But that doesn’t explain human empathy and other virtues that are not individually beneficial to survival. These virtues are taught – and through education are more widely inculcated in a society evolving towards a global civilization. Individual belief in these virtues is necessary for society to survive – obviously the values of fascism and communism have failed, and now capitalism is also failing. What is the source of the teachings that will help man to evolve as a society? Whether or not you believe in God as the source, one can’t deny that religion is the source of teachings that are a major mechanism for social/cultural evolution just as natural selection is the mechanism for genetic evolution. This doesn’t mean that God is evolving, but that only a religion that teaches mankind what is needed to survive in our ‘niche’ – the planet – can ultimately flourish.

]]> By: Martijn Rep http://www.jeunestreet.com/2009/03/26/an-evolving-god/comment-page-1/#comment-461 Martijn Rep Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:12:46 +0000 http://www.jeunestreet.com/?p=641#comment-461 Ah, for years I am thinking of writing something along these lines but never took the time to do it (too busy with biological science and religious activities). Well, saves me time ... Ah, for years I am thinking of writing something along these lines but never took the time to do it (too busy with biological science and religious activities). Well, saves me time …

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