Jeune Street

Great example of why I never watch this station.

Phhhht.

I wish that I could have heard more from Kevin. In the two debates, he wasn't able to put forward even one reason why marijuana shouldn't be decriminalized. The only argument that he gave was that users might go from 5% to 15% of the adult population, but never got the chance to say why that might be a bad thing.

If you look closely at the CNBC clip, you can see that the white IFB earplug in Rob Kampia's right ear pops out around the 2:00 mark. When he is not speaking, he's able to hear a tiny bit of the others' voices, but when he is speaking he can't hear them at all and assumes that their silence means that he should carry on. Keep in mind that none of them can see any of the others. The sound recordist should have caught this. The earpiece is put back in place when they cut away from him.

Both clips are examples of television style over substance. We learn absolutely nothing. It would be great to hear these two have a proper debate.

Right, good question. The strongest argument for legalization is basically that taxing and regulating the production and distribution of pot will leads to fewer people in the criminal justice system, and it cuts out all those baddies making a profit to fund drug wars in Mexico (and Vancouver, let it be said). But I think the strongest argument against legalization is the one identified by Kevin: legal drugs are used more.

So is it worth it? Kevin makes a convincing case that it's not. For one, any revenues from taxing pot are likely to be dwarfed by rising social and health costs. And second, dealing with users through drug courts that keep the small fries out of jail and help self-destructive users into rehab may be a more pragmatic way of addressing the criminal justice issue. Finally, I think the gangs question is far more complicated that legalization advocates think it is. Getting rid of gangs involves better police work, immigration reform, strategies to address urban poverty, educational reform, etc. Legalizing marijuana is not going to single-handedly dry up their revenue stream and clean up their act.

Thank you for your interest in my views, Bruce (and Geoff). I have an op-ed in the LA Times this Sunday that goes into all of the main arguments against legalization. I can't copy and paste it here yet until after its published in the Times, but I can reiterate some general points:

(1) Legalizing marijuana would in no way ensure that the black market would disappear (especially if you wanted to tax the drug to offset increases in use), and even if it did:

- The black market for marijuana is not where most of the crime and money are. Look to cocaine (3x bigger), heroin, and meth for that.
Money spent on marijuana is spread over so many users and distributors that few are working with amounts that motivate or encourage high levels of crime.

- Cannot compare post-1933 Alcohol Prohibition with an imaginary post-Drug Prohibition environment since the black market for drugs is endemic and entrenched in a way that Capone et al never were. (Interestingly, a violent black market exists for tobacco in areas like NYC where there are high taxes; Canada went through a similar situation in the 1990s). Though if you still want to look at Alcohol Prohibition, you will see that organized crime certainly didn't go away.

- Even if we legalize marijuana, hardly a dent would be made because cocaine, an expensive drug, is the main driver of the problems we’re concerned with.

- There is no guarantee the endemic marijuana market would go away after legalization
Cartels are entangled in so many other issues – human trafficking, extortion, kidnapping, etc. – that the harms from their existence would continue.

(2) Our two legal drugs offer an ominous example of legalization:

- One of the main reasons we should not legalize marijuana is because we have a hard enough time dealing with our two legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco.
Alcohol: Regular use about 65% (kills 100K)
Tobacco: Regular use about 35% (kills 400K)
All Illegal Drugs: Regular use about 6% (kills 12-25K)

Yes, 100 million Americans have tried marijuana, but most stopped after 1 or 2 times, or after their college career. The vast majority do not use any illegal drug.

(3) The harms from increased marijuana use, which would likely increase (no one can ever say how much exactly, however, but the Dutch example shows that commercialization/normalization leads to increased use rates), are real and problematic:

-Marijuana contributes to dependence, mental illness, lung obstruction, memory loss, motor skill disruption, and other harms in a way that tobacco does not, and its harms are underappreciated.

-ER admissions for marijuana-related illness (psychotic episodes, etc.) exceed those of heroin.
Small percentage of overall users, but still serious; especially because of increasing potency. Also rising treatment admissions from marijuana use alone - marijuana dependence is real.

None of this is meant to imply that smoking marijuana is like smoking crack-cocaine. Nor should one take from it that current drug policy isn't clumsy. It can be made to work much better through programs such as drug courts, screening/early intervention, swift & immediate (but not severe) sanctions, and increased research-based prevention efforts. We should work to reduce incarceration rates AND drug use rates (and also be honest about who is in prison - it is not any appreciable amount of casual marijuana smokers that have no involvement in distribution or other drugs and drug-related harms).

Thanks for showing interest in my views,
Kevin

I'm enjoying reading this discussion, and respect Kevin's expertise and views, but agree with Bruce that a fuller debate is needed.

In Canada, medical marijuana use is legal and indicated for chronic pain, m.s., and several other conditions. Marijuana is a pharmaceutical - it has effects on the body that carry potential risks and benefits, that will vary depending on dose, strength, and individual response. I haven't carefully reviewed the literature, but there is debate about the evidence that marijuana has any significant medical benefits. There are risks as noted by Kevin, but likely far less than the legal drugs tobacco and alcohol.

The tobacco control campaign over the past several decades provide useful comparisons. It's illegal to sell cigarettes to minors, you can't smoke in a public place, but otherwise you're free to damage your own lungs as you wish (just as you are free to be overweight or gamble - two other examples of self-harm). The decrease in tobacco use has come about mainly through public education and making it less socially acceptable.

Education about marijuana should take place in the home, the school, and the religious community; the main point being that marijuana is a mind-altering drug and why would you want to risk damaging the most important part of you? If de-criminalization increases marijuana use then we are not educating well.

Behaviour changes are difficult to legislate, and shouldn't be - unless they potentially cause harm to others. Most of my generation inhaled - if I had been caught and given a criminal record, it would have seriously impacted my future life. It's wrong to penalize young people with a criminal record for an experiment or error in judgement that harms only themselves.

And it's hard to see consistency in an American legal system that allows everyone to carry a handgun and supports the death penalty, but wants to keep marijuana illegal.

Marijuana use should be legalized as a controlled substance.

Brian - I can't reply to everything you said right about now. But there are very few people in the US who have a long-standing criminal record for just smoking one or two joints. It just doesn't happen. If it did, I'd be against it. I agree that only trying marijuana once or twice should not ruin one's chances for employment, etc.

And smoking tobacco cannot be compared with smoking marijuana. You can drive while smoking cigarettes, you can build a building while smoking cigarettes, etc., but doing these activities while smoking marijuana is extremely dangerous. Tobacco does not affect your ability to do these things - marijuana greatly does.